So we simply cannot tell them they are no longer under the law covenant. No other covenant exists to them.
Sure we can. They are just wrong in believing it. They tell us the NT is nonsense and Jesus was not the Messiah.
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
The UN instituted the state of Israel; are you suggesting that christian ethics, not political will, created the state of Israel?
You're posing this as an either/or choice which it isn't. Political will is driven in large part by Christian ethics. And it was Christian ethics, regardless of which country, which played a large role in stopping Hitler's war machine. Christian blood was spilled to stop the Germans, and consequently liberate the Jews who otherwise would have been vanquished. Did Stalin and other non-Christians also assist? Of course, but let's not minimize the contribution of Judeo-Christian cultures in lifting the yoke off the Jews.
The U.N's creation, or role in the creation, of the state of Israel is a mere formality compared to the amount of economic and military aid the U.S. and other nations expend it keeping Israel on the map. We spend billions.
Which teachings of Jesus did they use to establish a democracy by depopulating a country? The one where he said my kingdom is not of this world? Or turn the other cheek? Tell me how christian ethics will deal with the nuclear threat from Iran; what principles of Jesus will prevail?
It's not clear which country you are talking about. The American Indians? Just because a country justifies its wrong behavior with the Bible doesn't mean they are following Christian principles or do it with God's approval. Like many, you co-mingle Scripture with the Christian label. I don't know "how christian ethics will deal with the nuclear threat from Iran; what principles of Jesus will prevail?" Maybe none. It is a bit too speculative.
The official position of the US, a secular country by definition, is to protect the largest democracy in the Mideast. I concede that in the last 8 years, the policy toward Israel (as opposed to worldwide jewry) has been reinforced by the fundamentalist christian beliefs of the far right.
I'm not sure what definition you are using but the Christian founders would disagree with you as to the nature of the country they founded. Most certainly they would not consider it merely secular, although it has unfortunately disintegrated into that.
Of course, like you, they also perpetuate the lie that the "Jews" killed Jesus, so maybe it is a wash in your eyes?
Now you're just being ignorant and are over-generalizing. You're also putting words in my mouth because I never said this.
Would you be so protective of Israel if it did not figure in end times chronology?
Definately, after the holocaust and what those poor people have had to endure at the hands of atheists, false Christians and God-hating satanists. Yes.
NO I do not believe divine intervention. But you are welcome to ask him to smite me; I will wait here to see what happens.
I would never ask Him to smite you or any one else. He'll deal with you in His own time.
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
What scholars?
Tertullian, Moltmann, Aquinas, .... quite a few, actually.
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
Pistoff:
You never answered this either. You're an atheist? Or do you just hate God? That's a fair question.
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
I have read it, but then I see it differently from you, because I have also read it compared to actual history of the times.
Can you answer this for me? What actual history of the world are you referring to?
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
Me: point is that the idea that they were literal is a relatively recent concept, less than 50 years old.
Typo, my bad; I meant 250. Modern fundamentalism comes from the Scofield bible, you can look it up.
We weren't discussing the inception of modern fundamentalism but whether Christians interpreted Scripture literally prior to A.D 1760. First, I don't think anyone believes that every word in Scripture is to be taken literally, such as the Book of Revelation, even Deep-South fundamentalist. There is room for metaphor, various symbolic references, etc. Secondly, common sense dictates that in that earlier world, especially during the Dark Ages, certain aspects of Scripture were indeed taken literally. Jesus did walk on water. Do you have any sources to back up your assertion that "the idea that they were literal is a relatively recent concept, less than 50 years old"?
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
jd,
Re your posts 494 and 496. These passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah refer to their own times. And the passage in Deuteronomy needs to be read in the context of the time it was composed and edited - from Josiah through the Exile.
Doug
I don't follow. Can you paste the exact references you are referring to as I quoted other material there as well.
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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-
jonathan dough
Meanwhile, how about it? David and the census, did 70,000 really die because David counted heads?
Does God still care if I kept my foreskin?
I answered that.
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34
My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)
by Doug Mason inin my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .
the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .
however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.
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jonathan dough
http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-2.html
D. Servitude
“… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” Jeremiah 25:11
Quite frankly, it is unclear exactly what the Watchtower Society’s interpretation of Jeremiah 25:11 is today since it appears to have undergone significant modification from earlier times. The Society’s founder Charles Taze Russell who, in The Time Is At Hand (Studies in the Scriptures, Series 2, 1912 edition), p. 52, argued that the seventy years of serving the king of Babylon only referred to seventy years of desolation of the land and not seventy years of captivity, exile and servitude.“ Usher dates the seventy years desolation eighteen years earlier than shown above—i.e., before the dethronement of Zedekiah, Judah’s last king—because the king of Babylon took many of the people captive at that time. (2 Chron. 36:9, 10, 17, 21; 2 Kings 24:8-16.) He evidently makes the not uncommon mistake of regarding those seventy years as the period of captivity, whereas the Lord expressly declares them to be seventy years of desolation of the land, that the land should lie “desolate, without an inhabitant.” Such was not the case prior to Zedekiah’s dethronement. (2 Kings 24:14.) But the desolation which followed Zedekiah’s overthrow was complete; for, though some of the poor of the land were left to be vine-dressers and husbandmen (2 Kings 25:12), shortly even these—“all people, both small and great”—fled to Egypt for fear of the Chaldees. (Verse 26.) There can be no doubt here; and therefore in reckoning the time to the desolation of the land, all periods up to the close of Zedekiah’s reign should be counted in, as we have done.”
Russell’s strained rendering of Jeremiah 25:11 whereby the prophetic phrase “… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years” does not apply to anyone actually serving the king of Babylon has evidently been cast aside, as it should have been, for many Jehovah’s Witnesses 607 defenders reject such a narrow interpretation and recognize that the prophecy does entail servitude after all. That is where the bulk of the intellectual debate seems to be taking place, and where the authors of Setting the Record Straight have taken a strong, though misguided, stand.
In all fairness to Jehovah’s Witnesses, seventy-year theories abound. All such theories, except one, have the difficult, if not impossible, task of fitting the seventy years into a workable framework or slot. These flawed theories fail because they generally fall short of seventy years, or exceed it. In the case of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they both fall short and exceed seventy years and thus fail at both ends of the chronological spectrum with respect to devastation and servitude.
This paper takes the position that although it is helpful to understand when “these nations” (not only Judah) began to serve the king of Babylon it does so in order to establish the beginning of the Babylonian Empire as it relates to Jeremiah 25:11, which was 609 B.C.E., because the only acceptable and workable seventy year theory is the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory. It is a very simple and straightforward concept. The seventy years began in 609 B.C.E. when the king of Babylon brought to an end the Assyrian Empire at the final battle of Haran; it ended seventy years later in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes. During this seventy year period the affected nations of the earth collectively served, and were dominated by, the Babylonian Empire.
With this in mind it is important to understand why this paper argues that the Jews began serving the king of Babylon long before Jerusalem’s destruction - it is to prove that the Jehovah’s Witnesses' theory fails because it exceeds seventy years under their interpretation, although the exact number of those excessive years of servitude is not important. It is not necessary to prove a full seventy years of Jewish servitude to Babylon either as vassals or captive exiles because that is not required to disprove the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ 607 theory. As a matter of fact, proving that Judah’s Jews served Babylon a full seventy years is irrelevant under the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory, a concept difficult for many people to grasp.
Equally important is the year in which the seventy year prophecy ended, namely 539 B.C.E., when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes, and not upon the Jews' return to Judah. The Scriptural basis for this conclusion is also solid - reasonable minds cannot draw any other conclusion. And because the seventy year period of servitude ended in October of 539 B.C.E., and not as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim in 537 B.C.E. upon the exiles’ return to Judah, their theory fails at this end of the chronological spectrum as well. It bears repeating - the date the nations’ seventy years of servitude ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell is an extremely important point to remember because Jerusalem could not have been destroyed in 607 B.C.E. since that amounts to 68 - 69 years only, a fatal shortfall of one or two years.E. The seventy year prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 did not apply to Jerusalem and Judah alone but to all nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire. These nations, as a unit, comprising theBabylonian Empire collectively, served the king(s) of Babylon seventy years.
The meaning and scope of Jeremiah 25:11 can only be understood in the context of other highly relevant verses of chapter 25 and elsewhere. Regrettably, much of the Jehovah’s Witnesses' confusion stems in large part from excising, or separating, Jeremiah 25:11 from other pertinent verses and presenting it in isolation. The Jehovah's Witnesses’ truncated rendering of Jeremiah 25:11 is just one part of the prophecy and greatly mischaracterizes the sweeping scope of foretold events since the seventy years of servitude was unquestionably directed to all nations that eventually came under the domination of the Babylonian Empire, and not merely the Jews of Judah. For the sake of clarity and to better understand the reach of Jeremiah 25:11 additional integral verses 8 - 29 are reproduced in their entirety:
8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘“For the reason that YOU did not obey my words, 9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. 10 And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’
12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For even they themselves, many nations and great kings, have exploited them as servants; and I will repay them according to their activity and according to the work of their hands.’”
15 For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel said to me: “Take this cup of the wine of rage out of my hand, and you must make all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. 16 And they must drink and shake back and forth and act like crazed men because of the sword that I am sending among them.”
17 And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me: 18 namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day; 19 Phar´aoh the king of Egypt and his servants and his princes and all his people; 20 and all the mixed company, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Phi·lis´tines and Ash´ke·lon and Ga´za and Ek´ron and the remnant of Ash´dod; 21 E´dom and Mo´ab and the sons of Am´mon; 22 and all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Si´don and the kings of the island that is in the region of the sea; 23 and De´dan and Te´ma and Buz and all those with hair clipped at the temples; 24 and all the kings of the Arabs and all the kings of the mixed company who are residing in the wilderness; 25 and all the kings of Zim´ri and all the kings of E´lam and all the kings of the Medes; 26 and all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the [other] kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; and the king of She´shach himself will drink after them.
27 “And you must say to them, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: “Drink and get drunk and puke and fall so that YOU cannot get up because of the sword that I am sending among YOU.”’ 28 And it must occur that in case they refuse to take the cup out of your hand to drink, you must also say to them, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies has said: “YOU will drink without fail. 29 For, look! it is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity, and should YOU yourselves in any way go free of punishment?”’
“‘ YOU will not go free of punishment, for there is a sword that I am calling against all the inhabitants of the earth,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies.Obviously, the Jehovah’s Witnesses left much out, no doubt an inadvertent oversight. Nonetheless, the following observations are in order. First, Jeremiah’s prophetic words in verse 13 were directed “against all the nations” and not just Judah.
“ And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations.”
Secondly, service to the king of Babylon was not limited to Judah because Jeremiah used the plural “these nations” at Jeremiah 25:11. Third, verse 9 dictates a broader reading because Jehovah was going to send Nebuchadnezzar “… against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about …” not only against Judah.
Fourth, to make it perfectly clear which nations Jeremiah directed the prophesies to they are listed in the same chapter at verses 15-26. Jeremiah was instructed to take the cup of the wine of rage out of the Lord’s hand and make all the nations, who would succumb to the Babylonian Empire, drink it. These nations included Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, Egypt, the Medes, and roughly 20 other nations and/or kingdoms, and “all the [other] kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; …” Jeremiah 25:15,16. Even though Judah was one of these nations that would serve, or fall, under the dominion of the Babylonian Empire which spanned seventy years from 609 B.C.E. to 539 B.C.E., it was by no means the only nation to whom the seventy year prophecy was directed.
Fifth, additional evidence that Jeremiah 25:11 did not apply only to Judah and Jerusalem is found at Jeremiah 27:6,7, also written during the beginning of Jehoiakim’s reign. There, Jehovah stated in no uncertain terms with respect to nations surrounding and including Judah that he had “given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon” and that “all the nations must serve even him, and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes ….”1 In the beginning of the kingdom of Je·hoi´a·kim the son of Jo·si´ah, the king of Judah, this word occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: 2 “This is what Jehovah has said to me, ‘Make for yourself bands and yoke bars, and you must put them upon your neck. 3 And you must send them to the king of E´dom and to the king of Mo´ab and to the king of the sons of Am´mon and to the king of Tyre and to the king of Si´don by the hand of the messengers who are coming to Jerusalem to Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah. 4 And you must give them a command for their masters, saying:
“‘“This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said; this is what YOU should say to YOUR masters, 5 ‘I myself have made the earth, mankind and the beasts that are upon the surface of the earth by my great power and by my stretched-out arm; and I have given it to whom it has proved right in my eyes. 6 And now I myself have given all these lands into the hand of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant; and even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant.’
This statement of Jehovah’s sweeping grant of authority to Nebuchadnezzar, whereby those lands and beasts of the field had been given to serve him, and that all the nations must serve the king of Babylon generally mirrors the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 and related verses.
Sixth, if Judah alone was to serve the king of Babylon seventy years it would nullify the prophecy with respect to almost every other nation because not all nations would have been able to serve Babylon seventy years. The king of Babylon in 609 B.C.E, Nabopolassar, brought Assyria to its end at the final battle at Haran. If the seventy years of servitude applied to only one nation, it could only apply to the conquered nation Assyria when Haran fell (and any other nations conquered by the Babylonians (Chaldeans) in that year). All other nations could logically only serve less than seventy years, including Judah. If Judah was the only nation to whom the prophecy applied, and it applied only to Judah and Jerusalem commencing with their destruction in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, all other nations conquered by Nebuchadnezzar in the preceding 18 years would have served Babylon in excess of seventy years, and those conquered after Jerusalem and Judah fell would have served less than seventy years. Such an interpretation would nullify Jehovah’s word which directed the prophecy to all the nations and which could only be satisfied if the seventy year period of servitude was a composite, an epoch of time that applied collectively to all conquered or dominated nations as a whole. A parallel can be drawn with the military campaingn of Hitler's Third Reich which spanned six years between 1939 and 1945, even though not all of the nations conquered by the Nazis fell under its domination the entire six year period. Checkoslovakia was under Hitler's domination longer than France.
Seventh, if Jerusalem and Judah as one nation among “these nations” served seventy years, history, even according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be turned on its head because it would imply that Babylon conquered no other nations before destroying Jerusalem and Judah; that is, Jerusalem and Judah would have to be the first to succumb to the Babylonian expansion in Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th year as king. The implication would be that Nebuchadnezzar conquered no other nations during his first 18 years as king, but that simply is not the case.
Eighth, sometimes the phrase “king of Babylon” refers to the kings of Babylon as a whole or whoever the king might have been at any particular time without specifically identifying him by name. Such is the case with respect to the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 whereby Judah and the nations of the earth would serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Service to this king however was not limited to Nebuchadnezzar or even his son or grandson as stated at Jeremiah 27:7 but includes Nebuchadnezzar's father Nabopolassar who finished off Assyria in 609 B.C.E., and other kings besides Nebuchadnezzar’s blood relatives."And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant." Jeremiah 27:7.
This is not an all-encompassing list of the kings of Babylon which the nations served seventy years. Even 607 defenders in Setting the Record Straight are of the same view:
In fulfillment of Jeremiah 27:7, the exiled Jews did in fact literally serve Nebuchadnezzar’s son (Evilmerodach) and Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson (co-regent Belshazzer, whose mother was reportedly Nebuchadnezzar’s daughter, Nitocris). However, the captive Jews also served other kings of Babylon, including Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk and Nabonidus, none of whom bore any blood relation to Nebuchadnezzar. Thus,the words at Jeremiah 27:7, though indisputably true, were obviously not meant to be an all-encompassing list of rulers whom the Jews would serve during the seventy years.
As mentioned, to this more encompassing list should be added another king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolassar whose final destruction of his nemesis Assyria at Haran in 609 B.C.E. gave rise to the Babylonian Empire and the commencement of the seventy years of servitude. Servitude began with Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolassar and ended with the death of Belshazzer in 539 B.C.E. In accord with the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory the nations of the earth collectively served the many kings of Babylon from 609 B.C.E. to 539 B.C.E. for a total of seventy years in fulfillment of the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11.
Ninth, in chapter 25 of the book of Jeremiah, with respect to Judah and Jerusalem, Jeremiah foretold what lay in their future beginning in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar onward. The land of Judah would become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, which it was. However, determining the exact year the devastation began is not necessary because proving a full seventy years of devastation is irrelevant in as much as the seventy years pertained to servitude, not devastation. They are separate concepts.
As explained in detail below, there is no valid “seventy years of devastation” theory and therefore the fact that the Babylonian Empire commenced in 609 B.C.E. - three or four years before Jeremiah delivered the prophecy - is not material. As it pertained to devastation, yes, that lay in Judah’s future, but the seventy year duration of that devastation is a non-issue.
As stated, the many nations which served Babylon a collective seventy years described in Jeremiah 25:11 began to serve in 609 B.C.E. when Assyria was overcome at the final battle of Haran. The fact that Jeremiah said that “these nations will serve the king of Babylon” does not mean the beginning of the full seventy years of servitude was still in the future, which some 607 defenders argue, would disprove the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory. Their confusion stems from an incorrect understanding of the word “will” which they insist only applies to future events, but that is not the case.
“Will” has multiple meanings. It is frequently employed to connote occurrences, conditions, events or actions which do not lie in the future. The dictionary offers numerous examples."People will do right. You will not have forgotten him. This will be right. People will talk. You will often see him sitting there. Boys will be boys."
Even though servitude of many nations to Babylon still lay in the future, some nations had already been serving since 609 B.C.E. and the “will” of Jeremiah 25:11 therefore could not be strictly limited to all the nations’ future servitude. Assyria had already been serving when Jeremiah spoke the prophecy, and Necuchadnezzar conquered countries from Hattu to Babylon before he dealt with Judah. Therefore, since nations which were among those listed at Jeremiah 25:17-26, who tasted the cup of Jehovah’s rage, had already been serving when the prophecy was delivered, the “will” of Jeremiah 25:11 referred to past events, conditions or occurrences (servitude) as well as future servitude.
To illustrate further: a man has served five years in prison and believes, mistakenly, that he is scheduled to be released, but the prison warden says “No, you will have to serve ten years.” The warden is not saying he would serve ten more years, but that he would serve five more years in addition to the previous five years. The prisoner will serve the full ten years.
The same reasoning applies to Jeremiah 25:11. “Will have to serve” does not foreclose prior servitude of Assyria and other conquered nations. The seventy years of collective servitude commenced in 609 B.C.E.. This is the only proper rendering which harmonizes comfortably with the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory. “Will” does not always refer to future events, but can include past and current events.
Finally, even if the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory were to be proven wrong, that does not mean Jehovah’s Witnesses are right by default. Their theories must stand or fall on their own merits. -
34
My understanding of the "70 Years" and the "Babylonian Exile" (without chronology)
by Doug Mason inin my view, there needs to be a very clear decoupling of the destruction wrought on jerusalem/judah from the 70 years of servitude/babylonian domination.. .
the destruction was the outcome of the people failing over many centuries to obey god, and it was a conditional prophecy, the outcome of which depended on the people's response.. .
however, the servitude to babylon, experienced by several countries, was an unconditional prophecy.
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jonathan dough
Lars, you are completely wrong on this. And your analysis is superficial. 70 years is precise.